* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. ALRIGHT, [00:00:01] UH, WELCOME [ Call to Order] TO THE JULY 14TH, 2025 STUDY SESSION OF THE CHANDLER CITY COUNCIL. LIKE TO CALL THIS MEETING TO ORDER. UM, CLERK, PLEASE TAKE THE ROLE. MAYOR HARTKE HERE. VICE MAYOR ELLIS. PRESIDENT. COUNCIL MEMBER ZEUS. HERE. COUNCIL MEMBER POSTON. HERE. COUNCIL MEMBER ORLANDO. HERE. COUNCIL MEMBER HARRIS. HERE. COUNCIL MEMBER AT HAWKINS. HERE. WE HAVE A QUORUM. GREAT. UM, COUNCIL UNDER [7. Introduction and Tentative Adoption of Ordinance No. 5133, Sign Code Text Amendment, PLH25-0013 Temporary Signs in the Right-of-Way Move City Council introduce and tentatively adopt Ordinance No. 5133 authorizing the removal of illegal temporary signs in the public right-of-way and requiring them to be marked with the name and telephone number of the person or entity responsible for erecting the sign. Council Focus Area(s):] CONSENT AGENDA, WE HAD NO CALL-INS TO THE, UM, CITY CLERK OR TO ALEXIS, ALTHOUGH COUNCIL MEMBER HARRIS, UH, DID REACH OUT TO STAFF IN ADVANCE TO HAVE A QUESTION ON ITEM NUMBER SEVEN. COUNCIL MEMBER HARRIS. YEAH. THANK YOU SO MUCH, MAYOR. UM, YEAH, I, I GUESS MY QUESTION IS THAT WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO IS, UH, KELLY, I WANT TO KNOW FOR, FOR ITEM NUMBER SEVEN, UM, HOW DOES THIS ORDINANCE PREVENT FALSE SIGNS THAT ATTACK OUR CITIZENS OR BUSINESSES? IF I MAY, MAYOR, UM, COUNCIL MEMBER HARRIS, THIS ORDINANCE DOES NOT REGULATE CONTENT OF THE SIGNS. UM, SO IT DOES NOT ADDRESS, UM, FALSE STATEMENTS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT IN A A, A SIGN. OKAY. AND SO HOW DO WE, HOW DO WE MAKE SURE, UM, CAN WE AMEND IT TO MAKE SURE THAT IT DOES ADDRESS THIS? AND AGAIN, MAYOR, IF I MAY, UM, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF LEGAL ISSUES SURROUNDING ANY TIME, UM, YOU CHOOSE TO REGULATE CONTENT OF SIGNS, UM, I WOULD BE HAPPY TO GO INTO A, A MORE DETAILED DISCUSSION AND PROVIDE LEGAL ADVICE. I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT WE DO THAT IN AN EXECUTIVE SESSION RATHER THAN THE OPEN MEETING. MAYOR, I WOULD LIKE TO GO INTO AN EXECUTIVE SESSION TO, UM, TO DISCUSS THE LEGAL, UM, CONCERNS OF THIS ORDINANCE. WELL, COUNCIL MEMBER, WE CAN LOOK INTO THAT. OBVIOUSLY WE CANNOT GO INTO ONE RIGHT NOW BECAUSE IT'S NOT POSTED AND, UH, THAT'S REQUIRED AS YOU KNOW, TO HAVE A CERTAIN NUMBER OF HOURS IN ADVANCE. UM, ANY ACTION ON DOING ANYTHING ELSE WITH THIS ITEM WOULD CERTAINLY BE COVERED ON THURSDAY COUNCIL. I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT APART FROM, UM, ANY LOOK THAT'S DIFFERENT IS THAT IN A TIMELY FASHION, LET'S MOVE THIS AHEAD OR COUNCIL DECIDES ON THURSDAY TO POSTPONE THIS. BUT THERE ARE TIMING ISSUES TO GET THIS IN EFFECT BEFORE THE NEXT, UM, ELECTION. AND WE CAN ALWAYS, UM, ADDRESS ANY CONTENT CONCERNS OR HAVE THAT CONVERSATION INDEPENDENT OF THAT. BUT I WOULD BE RETICENT TO DO ANYTHING THAT WOULD, UM, DETER OR SLOW DOWN THIS PROCESS SO THAT WE ARE ABLE TO GET THIS ORDINANCE IN EFFECT BEFORE THE NOVEMBER ELECTION OR AT THE TIME THAT SIGNS WOULD BE COMING UP UP. SO COUNCIL MEMBER HARRIS, UH, REQUEST NOTED AND, UH, WE CAN CERTAINLY HAVE THIS CONVERSATION, UH, ONCE YOU'RE BACK IN TOWN AND LOOK AT SEEING WHAT WE CAN DO. UM, SO WOULD THAT BE BEFORE THURSDAY OR WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE? NO, NO. UM, AT LEAST MY SUGGESTION IS LET'S GO AHEAD AND MOVE ON THIS AS IS AND THEN WE CAN ALWAYS AMEND THIS AT ANOTHER TIME AND, AND TAKE THE CITY ATTORNEY'S RECOMMENDATION TO, UH, UH, TO ADDRESS, UH, FURTHER LEGAL CONCERNS WITH THIS IN EXEC SESSION. I WOULD LIKE TO LOOK AT ADDRESSING IT BEFORE WE PASS A ORDINANCE. UM, BEFORE THEN, IS THERE A WAY THAT WE CAN HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT THIS BEFORE THURSDAY IN AN EXEC SESSION SO THAT WAY, UM, THE QUESTION CAN BE EXAMINED AND I'VE ASKED A QUESTION AND IT NEEDS MORE. UM, THERE NEEDS THERE, THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE DISCUSSION AROUND IT, LEGAL DISCUSSION AROUND IT. AND I WOULD LIKE OUR TEAM TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE THAT TO ME OUTTA COURTESY OF WHAT I'M WE'LL BE VOTING ON FOR THURSDAY. UM, UNLESS THERE IS A APPETITE ON THIS COUNCIL, BUT TONIGHT WE CANNOT DELAY THIS. AND, UM, AGAIN, I THINK THAT'S A, A BETTER CONVERSATION TO HAVE INDEPENDENT OF THIS UNLESS, UM, ENOUGH COUNCIL MEMBERS DISAGREE WITH ME ON THAT. COUNCIL MEMBER ORLANDO? I, I DON'T DISAGREE MAN. I JUST HAVE A QUESTION, KELLY. SO THE QUESTION POSED IS, I THINK I UNDERSTAND IT, IT'S THE FIRST TIME YOU, YOU KNOW, GETTING A GRASP OF WHAT'S GOING ON HERE, UM, IS WHAT HAPPENS IF SOMEONE PUTS A DELIBERATE FALSEHOOD AND CORRECT IF I'M WRONG, IS THAT WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO HERE? IS THERE ANYTHING THE CITY CAN DO? IS, IS THAT WHAT WE'RE THE QUESTION IS, IF I MAY? YEAH, IF I MAY. MAYOR, COUNCIL MEMBER ORLANDO. UM, THERE ARE CONSTITUTIONAL AND SUPREME COURT CASES THAT ADDRESS CONTENT [00:05:01] REGULATION. ANYTIME THE CITY TRIES TO REGULATE CONTENT, WHETHER IT'S REGARDING THE TRUTHFULNESS OR NOT, THERE ARE LEGAL ISSUES THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED. UM, THAT DOES NOT PRECLUDE AN INDIVIDUAL WHO MAY FEEL THAT A SIGN IS UNTRUTHFUL ABOUT THEM. THEY MAY HAVE THEIR OWN ABILITY TO ADDRESS THAT. THAT DOESN'T TAKE AWAY FROM THAT. UM, BUT IT IS NOT COMMON FOR CITIES TO GOVERN SIGN CODES REGARDING THE CONTENT OR THE TRUTHFULNESS OF THE SIGNS. SO JUST TO FOLLOW UP REAL QUICK, MAYOR, UM, YOU, YOU OBVIOUSLY RESEARCHED THIS RECENTLY AND I, AGAIN, I DON'T, I KNOW IF THIS IS THE FIRST TIME WE'VE HEARD ABOUT THIS, OBVIOUSLY, I KNOW WE TALKED ABOUT THIS A LITTLE BIT BEFORE WE BROUGHT THIS SIGN FORWARD, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW IF THAT WAS AN UNRESOLVED, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT WAS AN UNRESOLVED ISSUE UNTIL NOW. I GUESS I'M TRYING TO, UH, OF OURS WHAT WE CAN OR CANNOT DO IF I'M UM, IS THERE, OKAY, BEFORE WE, YOU, BEFORE THURSDAY NIGHT, CAN YOU GIVE US A SUMMARY IF YOU HAVE DONE ALREADY? I I HAVE NOT A CHANCE TO READ IT, I APOLOGIZE. GIVE US A SUMMARY OF WHAT'S, WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO HERE, IF THERE ARE ANYTHING WE CAN DO AS INDIVIDUALS OR WHAT CAN WE DO? I GUESS THAT'S THE QUESTION. I GUESS SOMEONE'S ASKING IF I MAY, MAYOR, I'M HAPPY TO SEND THAT OUT TO YOU. AND THIS IS NOT A NEW ISSUE. THIS IS AN ISSUE WE DEAL WITH, WE'VE DEALT WITH FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS. OKAY. SO YES, WE CAN PUT TOGETHER, I DON'T HAVE A SUMMARY, BUT I CAN GET ONE TOGETHER TOO. I THINK THAT'LL BE FAIR. MAYBE THAT MIGHT ANSWER THE COUNCIL MEMBER'S QUESTIONS. I DON'T KNOW, BUT OKAY. THANK YOU KELLY. ALRIGHT, COUNCIL MEMBER POSTON. UM, I DON'T KNOW, I DON'T KNOW IF I THINK THIS IS FOR YOU, KELLY, BUT CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT THE TIMING IS ON THIS PARTICULAR ORDINANCE AND WHAT, AND JUST KIND OF GO OVER WHAT THAT IS. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S YOU OR THE CITY MANAGER. I CAN ADDRESS THAT IF YOU WANT. MAYOR, UM, COUNCIL MEMBER POSTON. UM, SO IF THE COUNCIL WERE TO APPROVE THE INTRODUCTION OF THIS ORDINANCE ON THURSDAY, IT WOULD COME BACK FOR FINAL APPROVAL IN AUGUST AT THE AUGUST MEETINGS. UM, SIGNS FOR THE UPCOMING ELECTION OF NOVEMBER 4TH REGARDING THE BONDS AND THE CHARTER CHANGES. UH, SIGNS CAN BE POSTED 71 DAYS BEFORE THE ELECTION, AND THAT IS LATE AUGUST. SO THERE WILL BE A LITTLE BIT OF TIME WHERE SIGNS CAN BE POSTED BEFORE THIS ORDINANCE ACTUALLY GOES INTO EFFECT. BUT IF IT WERE TO BE APPROVED, THAT COULD BE A TIME FOR EDUCATION. AND THEN, UM, BASICALLY, UH, STARTING RIGHT THE FIRST PART OF SEPTEMBER, THEN THE ORDINANCE COULD BE ENFORCED. OKAY. AND WE NEED TO HAVE TWO READINGS OF THIS, CORRECT? THAT'S PART OF WE DO WHAT THE ISSUE IS. WE, WE DO PURSUANT TO OUR, OUR CITY CHARTER. YES. OKAY. THANK YOU. YEAH. LAST FAIR. UH, CAN YOU EXPLAIN, I KNOW THE ANSWER BUT I, I JUST WANT THE PUBLIC TO KIND OF GET INTO THE REASON WHY THIS CONVERSATION IS BEING HAD NOW IS, UH, THE FACT THAT CONSISTENTLY WE CANNOT STOP PEOPLE FROM TALKING. JUST LIKE IF THEY WERE IN A PUBLIC SQUARE AND THEY WANNA CALL YOU A NAME, YOU CAN'T STOP THEM FROM SAYING IT. SAME THING ON THE SIGN. BUT WHAT IS IT THAT ARE WE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH WITH THIS ORDINANCE WHEN IT COMES TO THE SIGN, MAKING SURE THAT IF THAT HAPPENED, WHAT IS IT THAT WE ARE REQUIRING OF PEOPLE POSTING SIGN TO DO AT THIS TIME? IF I MAY? MAYOR, UM, VICE MAYOR ELLIS, WHAT THE ORDINANCE BEFORE YOU NOW IS DOING IS IT'S REQUIRING ALL TEMPORARY SIGNS TO HAVE CONTACT INFORMATION FROM THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT SIGN. AND THAT ALLOWS STAFF TO CONTACT SOMEONE IF THE SIGN NEEDS TO BE REMOVED. IF THERE'S ISSUES RELATING TO CAMPAIGN FINANCE OR, OR POLITICAL, UM, SIGNS. IT, IT GIVES US THE ABILITY TO, UM, CONTACT THE PERSON, TELL THEM WHY THERE'S A PROBLEM WITH THE SIGN, AND ALLOW FOR THEM TO REMEDY THAT, SIGN THAT PROBLEM. AND THERE'S NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT IN OUR CODE THAT THERE BE ANY CONTACT FOR TEMPORARY SIGNS AND THERE'S LIMITED CONTACT FOR POLITICAL SIGNS. AND AGAIN, BECAUSE, UM, THE SUPREME COURT IS INTERPRETED THE FIRST AMENDMENT TO SAY YOU CAN'T DISTINGUISH BETWEEN TYPES OF SIGNS, THIS IS GOING TO APPLY TO ALL TEMPORARY SIGNS POSTED IN CHANDLER. WELL, THE NEXT QUESTION I WAS GONNA ASK, AND UH, QUICKLY IF YOU MAY, IF THERE WAS THAT INFORMATION IS NOT UNDERSIGNED, WE ARE ALLOWED TO TAKE IT DOWN, IF I MAY, MAYOR, UH, VICE MAYOR ELLIS, ONCE THIS ORDINANCE GOES INTO EFFECT, YES. THAT IT WILL BE THE CASE. OKAY. SO THEN WE ARE DOING WHAT WE THINK WE'RE GONNA DO WITH THIS ORDINANCE. THAT WAS THE DIRECTION OF THE COUNCIL. YES. WHAT CAN HAPPEN IF WE TRY TO THEATER IN THIS AREA OF TRYING TO REGULATE CONTENT ON THE SIGN? BECAUSE I REMEMBER THIS IS, YOU KNOW, TWO ELECTIONS AND WE COULDN'T DO THAT. AND SO WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEN AND NOW? [00:10:01] IF I CAN AGAIN, MAYOR, UM, VICE MAYOR ELLIS, THE LAW IN THIS AREA HAS NOT CHANGED. THERE ARE FIRST AMENDMENT PROTECTIONS, THERE IS VIEWPOINT, UH, PROTECTIONS AND THERE IS A REQUIREMENT OF NEUTRALITY ON THE PART OF THE CITY. AGAIN, WE CAN GO INTO MORE DETAIL, BUT, UM, THE PUBLIC ABILITY TO HAVE THEIR SPEECH UNREGULATED IS ONE OF THE HIGHEST PROTECTIONS IN OUR COUNTRY AND EVEN HIGHER WHEN IT COMES TO POLITICAL SPEECH. SO ANYTIME YOU TRY TO REGULATE THAT, YOU OPEN YOURSELF UP TO CHALLENGE LAWSUITS, YOU MEAN? YES. THANK YOU. THANK YOU MAYOR. UM, MAYOR, COUNCIL MEMBER HARRIS. YES. SO, UM, THIS IS WHY WE NEED TO GO INTO AN EXECUTIVE SESSION TO DISCUSS THIS FURTHER. UM, THERE'S PROBABLY MANY MORE QUESTIONS I WANT, I WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS AS IT COMES TO THE FIRST AMENDMENT. AND SINCE, UM, IT'S BEING PRESENTED AS A CONTENT REGULATION ISSUE VERSUS A BUSINESS TO BUSINESS, HAVING AN ISSUE FOR BUSINESS PUTS UP A FALSE SIGN ABOUT ANOTHER BUSINESS THAT CREATES FURTHER FALSEHOOD, UH, WITH THAT BUSINESS. THIS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE WHERE I'M, WHERE I'M JUST SIMPLY SAYING, WHAT IF A BUSINESS TO ANOTHER BUSINESS? WHAT IF SOMEONE PUT UP NEGATIVE SIGNS ABOUT A BUSINESS AROUND THE CITY OF CHANDLER? UM, THAT, THAT IS A DIFFERENT CONVERSATION. SO THAT'S WHY I WANT TO HAVE, HOW DOES THIS PROTECT OUR BUSINESSES AND FROM CITIZEN TO CITIZENS WHILE WE'RE IN, WHILE THESE SIGNS ARE IN PUBLIC VIEW OR IN PUBLIC, UM, SPACES. 'CAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING. WE'RE ALLOWING WHERE WE'RE SAYING WHAT CERTAIN THINGS CAN BE, BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE THE, THE, THE ATTORNEY WANTS TO TALK ABOUT FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. AND I'M SIMPLY TRYING TO SOLVE PROBLEMS FROM BUSINESS TO BUSINESS AND PEOPLE TO PEOPLE. SO THAT'S WHY THIS CONVERSATION NEEDS TO BE HAD TO MAKE IT VERY CLEAR ON WHERE WE'RE TRYING TO GO AND SOLVE THE PROBLEMS THAT'S HAPPENING. AND COUNCIL, REMEMBER, I I, I, I KNOW KELLY IS RETICENT TO TALK ABOUT THIS IN AN OPEN SESSION, AND AGAIN, I I WOULD WELCOME, UM, AT A, AT A TIME IN THE NEAR FUTURE, US LOOKING AT THIS IF, UH, I, I DON'T MIND CALLING AN EXEC SESSION, BUT, UM, UH, YOU'RE CERTAINLY WELCOME ON THURSDAY IF, IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A MOTION TO POSTPONE THIS, I, I KNOW I WOULD NOT BE FOR THAT BECAUSE I AM, I WANT TO GET THIS PASSED FOR THIS ELECTION AND, AND I SEE A BIT OF APPLES AND ORANGES, BUT I'M CERTAINLY WILLING TO JOIN YOU AND HAVE A CONVERSATION AND COUNSEL, UH, ABOUT LOOKING AT THIS IN AN EXEC SESSION IN THE NEAR FUTURE. YEAH, AGAIN, MAYOR, I APPRECIATE THE SENTIMENTS ON THE EXEC SESSION AND WE CAN, UM, UH, MY CONCERN IS WE'RE SITTING HERE IN AN OPEN CONVERSATION, GETTING READY TO PASS AN ORDINANCE, A LAW THAT CHANGES ON THURSDAY. AND MY APPREHENSION TO IT IS MY QUESTIONS ARE GOING UNANSWERED. AND TO EXPECT ME TO VOTE IN ANY KIND OF WAY WHEN ALL MY QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN ANSWERED DOES A DISSERVICE TO MYSELF AND THE CONSTITUENTS AND TO THE PEOPLE OF CHANDLER. SO AGAIN, I ASK THAT MY QUESTION BE ANSWERED BEFORE THE MEETING ON THURSDAY. ALRIGHT, WELL AGAIN, UH, THANK YOU AND, UH, WE'LL SEE WHAT COUNCIL WANTS TO DO ON THURSDAY. SO COUNCIL WITH THAT, UM, WE HAVE NO OTHER, UH, BUSINESS HERE. OUR, I'D LIKE TO CONCLUDE THIS MEETING AND CERTAINLY WILLING TO CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION. COUNCIL MEMBER HARRIS, WITH THAT, OUR MEETING'S OVER. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.